What is a Nation.

I just had an exchange with a middle aged Greek, apparently.   I put myself out a bit knocking out a kinda long winded response to him which altogether kinda summarises my thoughts, feelings, attitudes towards a fair chunk of this Ukraine thing and perhaps even the world in general.

(p.s. what a drag, turns out I can't just copy and paste because I lose all formatting. aaarrgghh…  have to edit the  whole thing… labour, labour, labour..)

So I'm going to keep that exchange right here so's I've got it when I want to find it:

3 minutes ago

 @abrogard142  Are these the same DPR battalion who shot down Malaysian Flight 17? Justice will soon come for the victims of that war crime. Keep on admitting your DPR is an armed terrorist unit fighting the legitimate government that has indisputable sovereignty over the Donbass region, Ivan.

0 seconds ago


Hello. You raise an interesting point. I know nothing about it. Except of course the barest things. I certainly don't know if a DPR battalion shot down Flight 17. I therefore wouldn't know if this was the same battalion.

I can't 'keep on admitting..' because I never began.

The 'legitimate government' is clearly a matter of great dispute. And therefore 'indisputable sovereignty..' is also clearly disputable and is being disputed.

I think what you need to get clear: what everyone needs to get clear, is what you mean by 'a nation'.


Now is 'a nation' a stretch of country? Or is it a people? Or is it a government? Or it is a mere idea? Or all of the above? Or none of the above?

It's like 'conversations' ( i.e. acrimonious illogical shouting matches ) about 'god' and religion.

There is never clear definition of the terms used.

Now I tend to agree with the Jews. Shall we say. For an example.

For they consider 'the nation' to be the people. A people. A group of people who self identify as being a group.

There was a 'Jewish Diaspora', you know? When they had no land of their own and were spread around the world. 'Lost Jews'.

But they always considered themselves a nation. A nation in need of land.

Now I tend to think along those lines at least in the beginning. I certainly don't follow the Jewish line of thoughts to where it is today but the first bit: ' a nation is a people ' I certainly do agree with.

And so does the United Nations, I think, or some similarly self important august body.

For they have enshrined in their 'legislation' the 'right to self determination' which is a right that 'people' have.

Not that 'land' has, not that 'governments' have, not that 'ideas' have. But something that a collection of people have.

Similarly it is an idea that Kiev Ukrainians at least once used to have for I remember early in this conflict before they settled down into their set mantras, memes, doctrines, they would loudly proclaim they 'had a right to self determination'.

They did that, of course, because those that spoke it were the more rabid nationalists. And what they meant was that they were trying to create a 'pure' Ukrainian nation and they had every right to do that.

Well they were wrong.

You don't have any rights to 'create' nations. Nations are gatherings of people.

They create themselves. That is: they manifest as they manifest. That manifestation IS the manifestation of that nation as it IS.

It is for us all to recognise that.

Not for us to look at it and say this won't do, I'm going to have to change this: you must manifest THIS way or else you are not a nation.

That's just simple logic. But apart from the simple logic as applied to the theory of what they were doing there was the actual pragmatic fact of what was happening before their very eyes.

THEY were not 'self determining' – DONBAS was.

THEY were actually denying the Donbas their right to self determination.

When those two facts filtered into their consciousnesses they stopped shouting those words.

We haven't heard them for a long time.

So anyway what I am simply saying, excuse my laborious spelling it out, I am trying to be clear, is that the nation of Ukraine is its people and no one and nothing (but nature) (and in Kiev's case, the USA) has sovereignty over them.

They choose their own 'sovereigns'.

This is their right.

For it is all people's right and it's the way it works in nature in the end anyway.

Pointless to fight against it.

Now here is the point: You seem to think the 'legitimate government' has 'absolute sovereignty' over the Donbas region.

You are not clear what you mean by that but I think it is a fair guess you mean all the land, all the property and all the people.

Well they simply do not. Read what I've said.

I will stop now. Because it is no use flogging a dead horse.

You either, by now, begin to understand or you don't and if you don't me saying more isn't going to help is it?

I'll finish with this though:    Consider these three things:

. In the Christian bible it says 'ye shall know them by their fruits'.
. Viktor Orban says 'the first duty of the politician is to protect his people'
. Ukraine is the people of Ukraine: count the 40 million that existed before all this and still exist somewhere now.

And now ask yourself this in the light of those three things:
"What have been the fruits of governance by Kiev and USA and how well have they protected their people and by how much have they strengthened that nation?"

If you are satisfied by the answer you get you and I live on entirely different planets.

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